The committee met at 1501 in committee room 1.

Committee business Travaux du comité

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian): Good afternoon. I would like to call this meeting of the Standing Committee on the Interior to order. As always, please wait to be recognized by myself before speaking. All questions and comments will need to go through the Chair.

On the agenda is committee business. Are there any motions?

Mr. Rudy Cuzzetto: I move that the committee enter closed session for the purpose of organizing committee business.

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian): We have a motion. Any discussion or comments? MPP Mamakwa.

Mr. Sol Mamakwa: Meegwetch. Thank you, Chair, for the opportunity to be able to have some discussion on the motion to go in camera. I would imagine that we are talking about Bill 5, Protect Ontario by Unleashing our Economy Act, 2025.

I know that one of the issues that we see or that we face is to ensure—I want to put it on record—that we go to the homelands, to the traditional territories of the rights holders, where they live, if we are going to be travelling this bill. We should be hearing as a committee—to listen to the rights holders, the impacts of when we talk about free, prior, informed consent, and I believe that’s something that we need to move forward at.

I would suggest that we visit a couple of fly-in First Nations, like Neskantaga First Nation, such as Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug.

I just wanted to make those comments. Meegwetch.

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian): MPP Fife.

Ms. Catherine Fife: Thank you very much, Chair. We’re speaking against the motion that has been put forward by the government side. This committee, as it pertains to Bill 5 in particular, should actually be discussed in a public and open forum. This bill is causing a lot of concerns across the province of Ontario. We should be having a debate about where this bill should travel, as my colleague MPP Mamakwa has mentioned.

We do need to remember that Bill 5 is shifting from a permit-based oversight system to a registration-first model, allowing most development activities to begin immediately without prior environmental review. It’s granting the government discretionary power over whether to list species for protection, even when classified as “endangered” or “threatened” by scientific experts. This is a bill that’s eliminating mandatory recovery strategies, government response statements and progress reviews that currently guide species recovery.

So you can see that this bill is already having a chilling effect across the province of Ontario, and, while we are facing a very serious economic threat around tariffs, this does not mean that the government can literally steamroll over the laws of the land by creating economic zones where the law does not exist.

We feel very strongly, and I think this would be seen as a gesture of goodwill from the government to have an open discussion about how we are going to do our due diligence as lawmakers as it pertains to Bill 5.

Finally, my colleague MPP Mamakwa has of course consistently raised the fact that First Nations communities, Indigenous leaders, were not consulted about this bill, so we should now be having this discussion here, in the best interest of Ontarians, around the duty to consult as a legal obligation of the crown. Otherwise, even if those who have crafted this bill had the best intentions, Bill 5 will end up in the courts. It will actually slow down the development that we need across this province.

So let’s not move in camera. Let’s be honest and open about what the government’s intentions are and why some unintended consequences may be happening. But the first order of business is to have a very open and transparent and accountable discussion, and the government members are in a good position to do this today.

Let’s not move in camera. Let’s not shut out the public. Let’s try to build some trust and make Bill 5 a bill that actually will truly unleash the economic value of the province of Ontario.

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian): MPP Bourgouin.

M. Guy Bourgouin: Comme mes collègues l’ont mentionné, je ne supporte pas la motion. S’il y a un temps d’être transparent, s’il y a un temps—le moment nous demande d’être transparents. Même le premier ministre dit qu’il veut être transparent avec les Ontariens. On a entendu les ministres dire les mêmes choses. Puis, on va parler d’un projet de loi et ils veulent aller, tu sais, derrière—procès « in camera », qu’on puisse aller en discussion privée. Mais on manque le moment.

Les Ontariens ont le droit d’entendre les discussions parce que quand on pense au projet de loi 5, quand on pense à l’impact qu’il peut avoir sur les Premières Nations, comme mon collègue Mamakwa a mentionné, le projet de loi, non seulement—on doit le voyager pour que les « rights holders » puissent dire ce qu’il en est. Il représente beaucoup de Premières Nations. Moi, j’en représente aussi. Il faut que les Premières Nations aient de quoi à dire sur ce projet de loi, puis aussi que le projet de loi se promène en province. Ça ne s’arrêtera pas juste aux Premières Nations. Tu sais, les environnementalistes—tu vas avoir tout le reste qui suit.

Qu’ils aient dit, d’un coup de crayon, que pour la situation qu’on voit avec les Américains, on va tout mettre ça de côté—je pense que s’il y a de quoi que les Ontariens aient une chance de dire, c’est maintenant. C’est pour ça que, plus que jamais, la transparence doit être primordiale : que les personnes qui nous écoutent aujourd’hui puissent être capables d’entendre les discussions qu’on va faire, qu’on prenne des positions, que le gouvernement ait les positions qu’ils veulent apporter ou discuter. C’est la moindre des choses.

On dit qu’on vit un moment historique. On l’a entendu en période de questions. On l’entend avec le premier ministre. On l’entend avec les ministres. Puis le premier ordre qu’on fait en comité, c’est qu’on va aller discuter—c’est probablement le projet de loi 5—à portes closes pour ne pas que les concitoyens entendent les discussions qu’on va discuter. Je trouve que c’est un manque de respect, non seulement ça, mais c’est un manque d’opportunité pour de la transparence.

On a été élus pour représenter le monde de différentes régions. On a une obligation d’avoir de la transparence. Je ne supporte pas la motion, puis je pense que le projet de loi doit être voyagé pour que la population puisse dire ce qu’ils ont à dire sur—que c’est pour ou contre, mais au moins qu’on entende la population. Mais je ne crois pas qu’on devrait aller, comme ils l’appellent en anglais, « in camera » pour être capable d’avoir ces discussions-là. S’il y a quelque chose qui est antidémocratique, c’est bien ça.

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian): Any further comments? I see none, so I’m going to put the question.

Mr. Sol Mamakwa: Recorded vote.

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian): MPP Cuzzetto put a motion to go into an in-camera session. MPP Mamakwa asked for a recorded vote, so we’ll have a recorded vote.

Ayes

Cuzzetto, Dowie, Gallagher Murphy, Chris Scott, Vickers.

Nays

Bourgouin, Mamakwa, Tsao.

The Chair (Mr. Aris Babikian): The motion is carried.

The committee recessed at 1511 and later continued in closed session.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE INTERIOR

Chair / Président

Mr. Aris Babikian (Scarborough–Agincourt PC)

First Vice-Chair / Premier Vice-Président

Mr. Sol Mamakwa (Kiiwetinoong ND)

Second Vice-Chair / Deuxième Vice-Président

Mr. Jonathan Tsao (Don Valley North / Don Valley-Nord L)

Mr. Aris Babikian (Scarborough–Agincourt PC)

Mr. Guy Bourgouin (Mushkegowuk–James Bay / Mushkegowuk–Baie James ND)

Mr. Rudy Cuzzetto (Mississauga–Lakeshore PC)

Mr. Andrew Dowie (Windsor–Tecumseh PC)

M^me Dawn Gallagher Murphy (Newmarket–Aurora PC)

Mr. Sol Mamakwa (Kiiwetinoong ND)

MPP Chris Scott (Sault Ste. Marie PC)

Mr. Jonathan Tsao (Don Valley North / Don Valley-Nord L)

MPP Paul Vickers (Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound PC)

Also taking part / Autres participants et participantes

Ms. Catherine Fife (Waterloo ND)

Clerk / Greffière

Ms. Tanzima Khan

Staff / Personnel

Ms. Pia Anthony Muttu, research officer,
Research Services